The Exchange | Roast Summit Portland Ep. 45

Episode Summary
Mark and Todd (and sometimes Mike) discuss Roast Summit in Portland while attending the event, reflecting on the significance of community in the coffee industry. They explore the legacy of coffee guilds, the importance of educational moments at coffee trade events, the future of coffee gatherings, coffee culture, and emphasizing the need for connection and belonging in the coffee world.

 

Episode Notes

• The sold-out Roast Summit in Portland was the most attended yet.
• Coffee guilds were seen as the backbone of the coffee community.
• The intimate feeling of the Roast Summit mirrors that of past guild events.
• Educational moments at events are crucial for growth in the coffee industry and building coffee community.
• Community and belonging are essential in the coffee industry and coffee culture.
• The importance of mentorship opportunities at events like the Roast Summit.
• The future of coffee trade events should focus on fostering connections.

MIKE FERGUSON: Welcome to The Exchange Coffee Podcast hosted by Mark Inman and Todd Mackey. This is Episode 45 recorded while Mark, Todd, and Mike, that's me, attended the Roast Summit hosted by Roast Magazine in Portland just a few days ago as I record this. You'll notice from the sound that we are not in the studio, but in an Airbnb where we sat down to talk about the event. And now here they are, Mark and Todd, and Mike too.

 

MARK INMAN: We are in Portland, Oregon. This is where I got my start in coffee, my old stomping ground, at the Roast Magazine Roast Summit. And this, but this one is the most attended yet.

 

MIKE: Sold out.

 

MARK: Sold out over 300 people.

 

TODD MACKEY: It's jamming.

 

MARK: Which is really equal to a Roasters Guild Retreat. When the guilds existed, it was very similar in size. It's wildly impressive to me.

 

TODD: Should we just hold a moment of silence for the guilds? Can we do that?

 

MARK: You can pour it out for your homies there with your beer. Just pour it on the couch. It's okay. The Airbnb deposit here.

 

MIKE: You know, I can edit in the silence.

 

TODD: I wanted to build a little energy. No, that's fine. We can move on.

MARK: But I will say to build on your energy, Todd, I have long felt that in the SCA, SCAA, you know, that transition, the guilds were the backbone, the soul of the association. It's where I got the most kind of charge and versus, you know, I did love the larger SCAA or SCA, but the guilds, they were intimate and it was people that were extremely focused on one aspect of coffee. So for me it was roasters guild, for you barista. And this has a very similar feel to it to me and I love that that still exists.

 

TODD: Yeah, yeah, I mean to me it was a place of belonging in like a very meaningful way. And the calendar year was like at a point it was littered with events right like this one I mean there were Some years at the at the peak in the US there were four barista camp events.

 

MARK: Unbelievable.

 

TODD: And I believe, wasn't there a year where there was two?

 

MARK & TODD: Two Roasters Guild retreats!

 

TODD: I mean that is crazy to me.

 

MARK: And now none.

 

MIKE: There's a reason it worked and what Connie's doing is tapping into the reason that it was working.

 

MARK: Well, and I'm surprised that prior to her tapping into this that, because there was talk when I was early on the board the Roasters Guild was very frustrated with the relationship with the SCAA and they were gonna they kept threatening to just, we're gonna branch off and do our own thing. And when they actually killed the guilds, I thought somebody's gonna pick up the mantle and do this, it’s a natural. There's such demand for this type of feeling and she's basically filled that void at this point.

 

MIKE: Yeah, very reminiscent of being at a Roasters Guild or something.

 

MARK: Yeah, very impressive. I'm very happy to be here. I took a lot of notes from my time here so far, but a lot of it had to do with kind of like this is the soul. This is the kind of the the real reason why people are so thrilled about being in the coffee industry because it has this intimate kind of family feeling that you don't get in a lot of other industries and and then you get into like the coffee fests and other stuff and those are trade shows. I mean, that's what they are. They're not really trying to be much beyond that.

But yeah, she's had educational events. This is day one we just completed. Some very strong educational events, but a very solid turnout of what I'm assuming are small to medium sized roasters and some importers. I didn't see any really, I guess there was Dillano's, that was larger...

 

TODD: I felt like I saw a good number of larger roasters. The moment for me that really sealed it, it brought me back to the first Roasters Guild I attended, which I believe was in West Virginia. Remember the property that would go back and forth between...

 

MARK: Sugar Lake?

 

TODD: Is that what it was called?

 

MARK: It was called? Up in Minnesota. No, no, the one in West Virginia. I forgot what that was.

 

TODD: There was that and then it would go out to a Skamania Lodge in Washington state, but regardless like, there was always this moment at the guild events, Barista and Roasters Guild, where there is a clear kind of, I won't say old guard because I think that's not the right feeling or connotation but this sort of like clear contingent of people who have been doing this a long long time who in so many ways, you know, them coming to this, they're not gonna sit in a session, a class, and be, you know, they'll be engaged, excited, and always find something out of that class and combining it with their ongoing curiosity. But for all intents and purposes, like, they are doing the thing, they've been doing the thing, and you walk into a room like this one and you look around and it's like, yeah, a lot of these people were there. But then immediately, Connie goes up and becomes the voice of that portion of the room and is sort of welcoming anyone who this may be their first event and opens the door for no ego, very safe, open space and yeah, I feel like to me, I haven't been to something like this. Probably, I mean, there's a few regional events. I have to shout out Northeast Coffee Festival, fantastic.

 

MARK: AKA NURBIC. No, that was different.

 

TODD: The NURBIC was, this is the Northeast Regional Barista Competition. I know, that's a favorite of mine. That was the one time I competed. But no, no, the NECF, Northeast Coffee Festival, which is on, it's going to be its sixth year this year.

 

MARK: In a similar field to this?

 

TODD: Similar feel more DIY, more, you know independent smaller companies, but really just you see this kind of very community run community focused energy and I think the coolest way that this connects back to those guild events is that A. A lot of people who were foundational yourself included, Mike, people who were like the builders of the original iterations are in the room, just as excited to be there as ever. And then you combine that with like, yeah, a lot of folks that are probably first or second time coming out to an event and they're got the nerves and show up and they're welcomed so warmly. It was moving.

 

MARK: Yeah, absolutely.

 

TODD: I was moved.

 

MARK: Highlight today. Any topics that you enjoyed or?

 

TODD: There was a moment there was a... so for me like one of my favorite moments of the day, I mean there was a lot of great moments interacting with a lot of folks, yourselves included, but my favorite moment of the day... I went to a presentation. I'm sure you must have gone to this session at a different time, but I was in the class that Rob Hoos. Yeah, yeah presented on quality in dark roasting.

 

MARK: Quite topical given our the quiz we did a episodes ago. And Mike's insistence of don't crap on the dark roast. It's a significant.

 

TODD: No, he literally cited the same consumer preferences.

 

MARK: Although Mike checked him on that. Well, live in my session.

 

TODD: Interesting you were in that session. So I sat in a later session and Rob, although not by name actually referenced Mike's follow-up to his data and for me as a friend and colleague to you, Mike, that was a moment where I was just like that is it's just so awesome. Yeah, like knowing where that came from.

 

MIKE: To be fair, think it was, I think it was, was, I wasn't checking him when I was just adding a footnote.

 

TODD: Oh no, it didn't come through that way at all. was not, you're challenging. was more adding a bit more depth.

 

MARK: It was adding more color to that. Yeah. I'll take it. I saw him edging his way towards the corner and I'm like, boy, here we go. Yeah.

 

TODD: Yeah, really good. But yeah, no, that was awesome. I mean, for me, these events, it's always just seeing everybody I had. mean, one of my favorite interactions, I had a great chat with Mike Strumpf of Swiss Water. Easily. I mean, one of the best coffee people out there.

And being in Portland, my first SCA was in Portland. And I arrived early to volunteer as a USBC sensory judge. And Mike was the head judge who was running the calibration. Who, you know, he was so good in that role. And yeah, just had such a great sense of humor for that sort of thing. So just getting to hang with him a bit today brought back so many good memories. How about you guys? What was the?

 

MIKE: I had a well first of all I just want to say that whether it's the Northeast Coffee Fest or this summit, I just think it's just probably reiterating that the reason these events are happening is because they're filling a void.

 

MARK: Right.

 

MIKE: Yeah. So, and one of my favorite moments today was I was out on the roasting patio. I'm not a roaster, but I was trying to follow the program. So, I was out there with my group and we'd just come out of the dark roast class. And I was trying to stay off to the side because I didn't want to get in the way of the roasters who, the class is for them. And of course, Mike Ebert was teaching the class and Mike kept calling me out. But one of my favorite moments is Mike is talking, he was talking about the new Dietrich electric roaster and so he's doing his presentation and there's several people I perceived as young roasters standing a few feet away from Mike and as he's talking he's a little soft-spoken and so he would turn away to look at the roaster so his you know the volume and his voice would go down and watching these young roasters lean forward. That was probably my favorite part of the day just that hunger, you know that point in their career where they don't want to lose a single word. You know, they're just fascinated by the whole process, eager to learn.

 

MARK: Yeah, I thought what was interesting in the roaster area today was the kind of return or resurgence of Sivetz. That roaster that I know if you've ever seen an old, Todd, this may not be in your wheelhouse, but in the old Sivetz, it was like basically a freshman metal shop class experiment. The original ones were extremely clunky looking. And now it's like machined and sexy and it looks it looked very similar to a Loring to me but Sivetz since the passing of Michael Sivetz, I don't know who even owns this company but certainly out of nowhere this machine showed up. I haven't seen that at even at the SCA show

 

MIKE: No, yeah, the old Sivetz. What I remember is going to a roasting plant where if they had a Sivetz and the consistent the one thing that was consistent from plant to plant was they were extremely customized.

 

MARK: Oh, they were all glued together. Yeah. And then you had this like literally AB vent tubing was the spout that the coffee came out of. it was, it just looked like you went to the hardware store and decided to make a roaster.

 

TODD: Yeah. Yeah. No, I believe it or not, Mark. I, there were many iterations of Roasters Guild classes that I taught on convection in roasting and well..

 

MARK: But not fluidized necessarily.

 

TODD: As a necessity, one would have to include information about a fluidized bed roaster and civets being at that time, you know, really the, the only one that I was familiar with until I spent some time in China in my early Olam Specialty Coffee days training on small shop Neuhaus Neotec machine.

 

MARK: Which was the sexy version of Sivitz at that time.

 

TODD: Sure, and I imagine there are more industrial sizes of that machine that are very impressive.

 

MARK: Oh yeah, in fact, when I was in the UK with the previous company, we had a lot of clients over there. The environmental rules in Europe, you see a lot more fluid bed roasters in there. And my reference point of a Sivitz, the original Sivitz was, it was basically preset profiles and you really had, they didn't even allow them in the Roasters Guild at first because there was nothing for you to manipulate or do. You just put the coffee and turn it on and pull it out when you have the profile done. And the later iterations of the Neuhaus Neotec allowed for profiling. And I was at Mastercol, or Master Roast UK, which is Matthew Mills' company. And there was a kid there that was probably 25- 26 years old and they were talking about yeah, you know Mark was involved with the Loring and and we were chatting he goes, “Yeah, but I could roast better than you on this machine. I know I can.” I'm like, really? And then he kept leaning into his skill set on this roaster and my point was like my thought process was well, it's on off like what's where's the talent here and then he did a tasting of all the coffees he had done and they were stunning and so he you had the profiling potential and it kind of reawakened me to, the fluidized beds model is evolving pretty rapidly and in many ways there should be a second look taken at it. Obviously with Sivitz now here with the shop roaster, that's probably happening. But my kind of knee jerk off the cuff reaction to fluid coffees is you could taste the fluid bed. You could just taste-

 

TODD: Well, they have the propensity to be a little bakey, right?

 

MARK: Bakey and thin.  

 

TODD: But that's not unlike the Loring, the tangential air roaster. I mean, Loring, obviously you have a cylindrical, it's not a drum, right? It's a fixed cylindrical compartment. But it does, the coffee is coming into contact with it.

But yeah, I've always wondered and I wasn't there for this. I mean, you'd be able to comment more directly. I always thought in looking back from a little further and realizing, oh, whoa, especially with like how beloved Loring has become, especially with having played with these roasters, you know, being in other places where their influence is greater. Understanding that, you know, even on an Akawa, for example, is very similar, right? Where you're, realizing that, okay, if you tried to apply the standards for roasting that you took from a Diedrich, a Probat, a Gieson, a typical gas-fired drum roaster, that's where it falls apart. But at the time where those standards were sort of written, communicated, so on and so forth, those were the companies that really had a death grip on everyone's attention here. So it seems like if someone were really there championing this space, history would look a lot different.

 

MARK: Well, Michael Sivitz was. I mean, every event he at SCA, he was there.

 

TODD: I don't mean to suggest he wasn't, but I mean the equipment from an appearance, a communication, just a, is it available, is it scalable? It was not pushed in the same savvy type of way.

 

MARK: If you were, this is the question for the floor here, if you were to start your dream roastery, what type of machine would you use knowing what you know now? What would you be more attracted to using?

 

MIKE: Well, if I did that, it would be a passion project. So I would pick the best looking roaster. I'd pick an old, the oldest Probat I could find. And I would have to be rich if I was starting a roastery. So I'd find something that someone could rebuild from the ground up. And that would be just because it would please me aesthetically.

 

MARK: So an antique restored vintage roaster.

 

MIKE: And now, that's because it's a passion project right yeah

 

MARK: Yeah, but that's valid. Todd?

 

TODD: Yeah. I mean, for me, the profile from the Probat. Yeah, classic Probats. I think the Probatone series is great. The current P series. Right. I certainly prefer the P series to the L series that preceded it. But for me, yeah, if I were to do it and and logistics aren't an issue, like fossil fuel consumption is not on the table. The practicality of it doesn't come into play. For me, the UG22. Oh, I got you. Modified.

 

Mark: Modernized.

 

TODD: And modernized, not modified, with a working aroma valve. would be the machine.

 

MARK: Not one hat just looks cool to look at?

 

TODD: No, mean they're dangerous, right? The aroma valve essentially cuts off the airflow out of the machine. And so I believe the..

 

MARK: Would you utilize that? You'd be at the end, you're cranking it down.

 

TODD: No, the move that I understand to be the power move and Rob actually talked about this as a moment in his discussion on dark roasting, not because it affects it, not to be specific about dark roasting, but as you approach first crack, you have water vapor pressure building, right? And changing like the aspects of flavor development and chemistry and all this type of stuff. The aroma valve is essentially a closed door. So simultaneously you could cut the heat. You have all of the energy in the drum approaching this exothermic moment where it's going to start generating energy from it from and for itself. You close the exhaust system through the aroma valve-

 

MARK: And crank the heat off

 

TODD: Yeah, and turn the heat off, right? You can't keep the heat on because there's no oxygen for combustion. You'll flood it with gas. All of a sudden you'll blow it up when you turn it back on. It's like a giant pipe bomb. But to give it that time where it's taking energy from itself, driving through first crack under synthesized pressure, to me that is like the whole next level. And I understand why that feature on the machine past whatever year it went out of production, I can't even tell you. get why it's totally a non-starter for like UL listing or safety or whoever. But to me, that machine would be the one I would want. And the Probat, it's kind of like why I would imagine for you guys who eat steak for lunch six days a week, when someone cooks it on a steel pan, that is not sufficient. You want a certain searing that only cast iron can do. And I tend to believe, you know, it is, I have had fantastic coffees from all machines, it is not as natural in my, albeit, limited experience with various types of roasters to be able to get that in kind of the inherent behavior of the machine. And those Probats to me, you can basically, if you charge it, you put the coffee in at the right throw weight, that thing wants to make it taste great, just in the natural kind of inherent profile. So long-winded answer, but that's what I'm at.

 

MARK: It's a fantastic answer and it really, while you were talking, because over the year I've roasted on many roasters and certain years I've had certain flavor profiles that have attracted me more than others. And about five years ago, what I was tasting off Strongholds were blowing my mind. But it was super clean and super bright and it's like a great Sauvignon Blanc wine where it's got that gooseberry and fresh lawn--

 

TODD: Cat urine type of thing.

 

MARK: Not that, that's like a defect, but with a lot of clarity, but it did lack body. But now I'm in this phase in my life where I'm really gravitating towards sweetness wins and body and juicy, these rich flavors. And I've roasted on Probats for years. I'm more attracted to the look and the build quality of the Giesen. That's like the old school L series and UG series of the 70s. Like they had that heavy, the whole thing's cast iron versus now the new Probats are a mixture of metal and cast iron. So it would probably be a Giesen if I had a shot, like my passion project, because I just, I've liked the way coffees I've roasted come off that thing. I think the roaster looks cool and the build quality is great. Although I can say that, it when I've competed in roasting my best roasts I've ever done have been on Diedrichs and sauce the Sasa Samiac back in the day as a French roaster.

 

MIKE: Best roast in the context of the competition or best roast like ever?

 

MARK: Where I felt like I nailed it and then I turned it in and I did well and I knew I did well.

 

TODD: And it was for what preparation method?

 

MARK: These were cupped, we were cupping these.

 

TODD: Okay, interesting.

 

MARK: But just the way the, you know, you'd roll into the first crack and you roll in a second, you could just feel the coffee doing what you wanted to do. I just felt Diedrich's can deliver. Even the IRs, mean, once you figured it out, it wasn't that difficult to roast.

 

TODD: Yeah, no, it's interesting you say that because I had I had a more comprehensive answer. I mean there was a time where What I would have answered for this would have included two different roasters one for filter coffees and one for espresso and--

 

MARK: Okay, what would, and that's wild yeah, and what would that be?

 

TODD: So and and so the the roaster that I was--

 

MARK: It's a very expensive plant you're building compared to Mike’s vintage--

 

TODD: Sure, it’s totally practical. I will say there is a roaster and we work with them. We've also featured some of their principles on this podcast who actually do this they have Diedrich and Probat and primarily use Probat for filter coffees and primarily Diedrich for espresso. Or at least historically so. Things may have changed by now. But to me, the IR and the sort of like, I'm probably envisioning the roast process in an artistic sort of, you know, mind way rather than really what's happening. But the indirect heat, the softness of some of the, you know, very sweet profiles, mellow acidity, but like in a preparation method like espresso, or I would imagine Moka Pot or something as concentrated like really mellow rounded edges that when intensified that way are fantastic.

 

MARK: That's a very interesting theory.

 

TODD: But to bring this back to our episode topic, super impressive. How many roasters are on the patio? Six? Eight?

 

MARK: Four.

 

TODD: OK, sorry, was way off, almost 100 percent.

 

MARK: Two Diedrichs, a gas and an electric. A Loring which is the smallest Loring I've ever seen, I don't, it's probably...

 

TODD: Must be a three kilo?

 

MARK: Or maybe a one kilo like we talked about in an earlier episode, like how you could make a full living on that and then the Sivitz which those are bigger than they look and their capacities are larger. But I didn't...

TODD: But yeah, a fantastic feature of the event. I feel like one of the things looking back, and obviously there's a whole different scale, but I can see where this event is going in over the long term to have a place where you can go as a young roaster to know that you can get some time on various equipment, understand not just, I mean, one of the biggest ways you learn the ingredient is by interacting with it through different mediums. And how hard is that? Where most people who've entered coffee, they're working for a company that has a roaster. And that roaster becomes what, when they start their company, they get it because it's the one that they know. And so to go to an event, I mean, in the heyday of Roasters Guild, there would be 20, 25 roasters on a giant like, like huge tent on one centralized exhaust pipe. I mean, really impressive. But I think to see that when Mike and I rolled in and we're seeing all these old coffee heads, haven't seen in ages and the roasters are outside and they're getting them all like plumbed in. And yeah, I mean, that is so exciting to see.

 

MARK: Oh, absolutely.

 

TODD: And a really unique environment. And I feel like if you're like on your way up and roasting, if you're looking to trade ideas, if you're looking to access people who in the context of an SCA are gonna be way too tied up, but could provide like mentorship opportunities and like build relationships, Roast Summit is a fantastic event.

 

MARK: I think it's wonderful. I think it'd be very difficult to have that experience at the SCA show. It's too much going on. I am somewhat surprised that companies like Probat who have a large plant in Chicago or Diedrich in Idaho, why they don't do these also like have a big tent we can go and roast on a bunch of models over a weekend.

It seems like it's just you know This is a great sales pitch for them here and it seems like to drive people to their plant and do a tour and then Have a roast challenge and give away something. I think they would bring tons of people to that

 

TODD: Yeah.

 

MIKE: Just an observation from a marketing desk. The Diedrich logo, they've got two logos. And one is a male and profile on this. They've got a second logo and the roaster has a ponytail.

MARK: Yeah, one has a cap and one has a ponytail.

 

MIKE: And I just remember there was a time when the reaction to that logo would be quizzical. because the first Roasters Guild, maybe there were two, three women. And then there was a time when that logo would have been aspirational.

But now I think more than ever, you know, that's just a reflection of who's there. I mean, looking around at who was watching the demonstration, that's what, you know, then the two roasters are sitting there and one has the cap and one has the ponytail. That's what the audience looked like. That's what the attendees looked like. So I just really enjoyed seeing that.

 

MARK: Well, I love to get to the bottom of how those logos are used and what was the thought process. you get to, like you said earlier, do you get to pick it or does it come with certain models?

 

MIKE: Yeah, I would imagine you get to pick.

 

TODD: Yeah. No, good on Diedrich for making space for people to see themselves as belonging in the narrative, right? I mean, if you look in any place and you can't see yourself there, why would you go in? But yeah, could not be more excited for Covoya to be a sponsor of this event. We sponsored with some green coffee, I hope from our company standpoint, like, we'll be at all of these going forward.

 

MARK: I would hope so. This is a great fit. I think any import company that is present here sees the potential of an event like this for them.

 

TODD: Yeah, I'd be remiss not to before we hang it up on this topic. Last minute, you've been tapped for a presentation, a panel. So tell us a little bit about what's going on there and what you what heat you intend to bring.

 

MARK: The panel's on navigating coffee buying in a challenging market. So it's tariffs and high prices and uncertainty and it's things we have been talking about recently. So yeah, I'm not sure if some speakers fell out. I'm not sure what.

TODD: I believe that was what happened. I was talking to Mike Ebert earlier and he had mentioned that there like a last minute cancellation. That's not to downplay. I mean, this should have been the headline to begin with.

 

MARK: I would assume that that topic was...

 

TODD: No, it wasn't on the schedule.

 

MARK: It should be the headlining topic.

 

TODD: Absolutely.

 

MARK: Yeah, I think it's gonna be relevant to anybody right now.

 

TODD: I think people will be like firmly in the grip.

 

MARK: So that's a lot of pressure on me.

 

MIKE: That's our we have another show on the network called Coffee Memo with Rob Stephen. And those have been extremely popular. They're doing very well and I think for a number of reasons but I just think because it's so day-to-day topical and just it's so, so in the moment so yeah.

 

TODD: Everyone's feeling it.

 

MARK: Yeah.

 

TODD: Yeah everybody I've interacted with like the joke is what a year we're having right? I mean it's...

 

MARK: I mean especially the people that have said I just got into roasting or I just became a buyer last year and it's like when you are picked the worst time to be in this.

 

TODD: Yeah, it's funny though. Wouldn't that person be like in the greatest benefit?

 

MARK: They're gonna walk away at this moment in time with the most knowledge versus people who spent five years with no real challenges.

 

TODD: For sure, but that person is like, oh, I guess this is how it works. Like everyone else is thinking oh, this is hard.

 

MARK: Like everything's on fire all the time.

 

MIKE: It's like running with a weight vest on.

 

TODD: Yeah, but awesome can't wait to hear people's reactions to what service you'll bring.

 

MARK: I hope to not disappoint.

 

TODD: Yeah, I'm sure it'll be great.